FB Public Poll 3 Nov 02015

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Randal Koene created a poll.

November 3 at 1:36pm

If there was a transhumanist political party, how would you like the party to take a position on social safety matters? This is about issues such as income, health and education. (Adding a few example positions to the poll, please add more.)


Cut well fare bureaucracy and replace with Universal Basic Income to help those who's jobs are displaced by robots, AI, etc +11

Government funded safety net, free healthcare, free education. +11

A decentralized government that cuts bureaucracy through block chain tech, enabling basic incomes for those that mine the block chain +5

Free education, Medical insurance available to all in varying methods and full government and corporate transparency +6

Mixed: Some basic safety features funded through taxes + private for-profit versions. +5

For-profit healthcare, private education. +5

Public Comments:

Randal Koene Note: I hope it is permissible within the intent of this group to put a question out there in the hope to at least determine breadth of differing opinion (and some very unscientific numbers on strength of support - seeing as Internet polls really aren't very representative)? If not, please feel free to delete! Like · Reply · November 3 at 1:37pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Also: I am asking this question, because I am very curious to see what sort of hurdles there are to forming a political party with a coherent platform, if there is to be one monolithic transhumanist party. Like · Reply · November 3 at 1:38pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I've added an option for my blockchain concept Like · Reply · November 3 at 1:46pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Interesting option. I don't understand it yet. For clarity, it might be good to repost the cases of Mary and Jake that I posted in the other thread. Or, just add the answers to those cases here to explain what this new blockchain approach entails. Like · Reply · November 3 at 1:48pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Working on a whitepaper for it, but you can look at Factom's system at present, they're sorta doing what I'm talking about on the blockchain side administratively, they've sorta run with my ideas, but they don't tie it to a proof of stake basic income system Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:00pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey bitNation and iNation also are working on similar proposals. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:01pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Is there a simpler implementation where you cut power waste by, instead of relying on the rental of equipment and the mining, just assume that people would do that and hand out some coin for that basic income (and profits by equipment builders) in the anticipated proportions? Seems simple and removes redundant waste activity. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:03pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Also might make it less complicated for people like Jake's elderly parents to understand and implement. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:03pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Just, automatically, mathematically, add the necessary coinage to the blockchain over time and hand it out. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:04pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey The problem with that is you are centralizing things by having government run a huge monolithic server farm, with a bureaucracy that will naturally ossify, bloat, and become entrenched with decreasing productivity, increasing cost, and decreasing accountability over time. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:06pm Randal Koene Randal Koene No government centralization - build it into the math of the blockchain system! It does it all by itself. Obviously, you do still need to have a national registry of all people. But the advantage is you cut out the need to have personnel on hand who's only job it is to go out and help elderly people understand how to work this new 'blockchain mining' thing. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:07pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Part of technological unemployment is that people fail to keep up on their skill base. A miner who is interested may become more hands on in managing their mining server, and develop skills thereby to reenter the technology workforce. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:07pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey By doing your handout routine, you are eliminating the monetary benefits of a cryptocurrency, namely you are turning it into a fiat system that is inflationary, which erodes earning power, and you fail to reduce government size and waste on the blockchain side. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:08pm Randal Koene Randal Koene I disagree. What I am doing is I am taking what you assumed to be the rational and obvious course of action for Mary and Jake (see examples in other thread) and deciding that their actions, if so obvious and rational and 'should be done', might as well be automated. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:10pm Randal Koene Randal Koene As a transhumanist, surely you don't object to automation? wink emoticon Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:10pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey The system IS automated, my way is decentralized, you want to centralize it Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:10pm Randal Koene Randal Koene No, I don't want to centralize it. I just think that your version comes with unnecessary waste. If everyone should be doing X to make the system work, why not just have the system do X automatically for everyone? Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:13pm David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Randal Koene Randal Koene What about people who do indeed fall behind? Should we just ignore them and carry on? This happens a lot - look at all of the people with emotional issues (e.g. depression) ending up on the street, not doing everything they could be doing 'to keep up'....See More Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:09pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Fall behind on skills, or lose the ability to upgrade? Firstly I think intelligence augmentation technologies are going to cure a lot of those neurological or psychological issues. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:10pm Randal Koene Randal Koene This is where it gets tricky. Obviously, all will be nirvana once we get to the utopian paradise that has augmentation technologies and everything else. The tricky part is getting from here to there. That's why my examples about Mary and Jake (other th...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:12pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Secondly, if someone is so incapable of learning or functioning in society, they are essentially institutionalized, thats where you have the rentals administered by whoever their guardian is. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:12pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Elderly people should be institutionalized? Isn't that coercion? Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:12pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey No, thats not what I am saying, if they are that incapable. Old people today who are in command of their faculties are entirely capable of learning this. If they can cash a social security check, or to renew their drivers licenses, then they can manage their mining rig. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:13pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Have you seen how hard it is for the elderly to keep up with every newfangled tech? I seriously doubt this could be implemented without some effort to help people get onto the bandwagon first. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:14pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey As for people who don't WANT to do it, well, too bad. They're living on money coercively taken from me. I have a right to have a say in what they need to do to keep earning any of it. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:14pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I have parents in their late 70's who keep up with the tech no problem given a little instruction. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:15pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey My father had a stroke in february and he still handles his emails and web browsing without difficulty. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:15pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Mike Lorrey, and in THAT precise statement (the one about 'too bad'), I think you will find that there is not agreement between all people in the transhumanist movement. And it will probably lead to different political parties (once again). That was really my point. Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 2:15pm · Edited Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Well, thats where it comes down to wheres the real coercion? Its not coercion for me to insist that Mary rent a mining server to keep mining her social security, since she's lived five years longer than the amount of money she paid into the system, she...See More Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:16pm Randal Koene Randal Koene I totally understand where you're coming from. I just think this difference in perceived coercions vs obligations towards everyone around you is where the different political views really clash. And I think they will clash that way in transhumanism as well. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:17pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey the idea of there being different subjective views about what is or is not a coercion is typical marxist moral relativism. Rights are always negative. Anything that compels someone else to do something for you is not a right, but a coercion, an initiat...See More Like · Reply · November 6 at 11:46am David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Randal Koene Randal Koene What happens to those who are down and out? Like, say, the panhandler on the corner with alcohol issues? Most don't seem at all ready to take cognitive control of their lives and get busy in the blockchain market. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:16pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Dude, I hired a programmer who was homeless and sleeping on the beach in Hawaii, and got him off the street. One thing he said is that almost all homeless today have cellphones to keep in touch and so they won't seem homeless to potential employers. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:18pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey So, again, your excuses are hollow. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:18pm Randal Koene Randal Koene I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to show that there are still issues that will divide transhumanists in politics. And the case of the homeless person you helped is awesome. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:19pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Saying "such and so is homeless/too old/on welfare/a minority, therefore they can't do this" is elitist, its snobbish, and really, racist/ageist/bigoted Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:19pm Randal Koene Randal Koene What? Are you calling me names now? Not sure where this comes from. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:19pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey You assume that people who are down and out or otherwise dependent are physically/mentally incapable of learning anything about technology. Thats arrogant. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:20pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey There's computers in pretty much every public library with internet access, lots of homeless use them to do stuff online, some even work online through the library. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:21pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Mike Lorrey, you're still calling me names, which is really poor form in a conversation and does not strengthen your arguments. I am quitting here, because I don't appreciate that. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:22pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey No, I'm calling your attitude names. Attacking your ideas as arrogant. Thats not ad hom. You need to read up on what is and is not ad hominem. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:23pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I've eliminated your "but its for the children" excuses that are typical leftist alinsky tactics of guilt/smear. Stop trying to push edge cases that simply don't fit in the stereotypes you are trying to wedge them in. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:25pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Randal Koene. I think the only sane and humane solution is a guaranteed basic income for all humans.....

Given the value-system divide between technoprogressive transhumanists and political-libertarian transhumanists, the formation of a single coherent transhumanist party feels very challenging... Like · Reply · 6 · November 3 at 2:34pm Heidi Hecht Heidi Hecht I can sort of see the Blockchain option. I've heard through the grapevine that there are experts working on more efficient algorithms that would make it feasible to "mine" on inexpensive devices. Groestlcoin is basically a test version of that. Really it wouldn't be competing with other mining rigs for "tokens" or "coins"; it would just be helping to process data related to government functions. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:35pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Mike Lorrey i would note your comments about Net access fail badly for most of the population of africa. But clearly basic income should transcend national borders

FYI greed is not good ... It is among our enemies as we move toward a radically better future for all... Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 2:37pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Greed is an evolutionarily successful behavior, probably the most successful behavior, that motivates almost everything humans do. What matters is how that greed is channeled. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:39pm Peter Morgan Peter Morgan I don't think so. Like · Reply · November 8 at 10:37am David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Trying to fight greed, i.e. what socialists did for over a century, has caused far more evil than greed ever did. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:39pm Heidi Hecht Heidi Hecht People are greedy and that's why Utopia fails. It would only take two people getting into a fight because John grew more tomatoes in his garden than Ken did and Ken perceives that as unfair to ruin a Utopia. Since Mike brought up socialism, most social...See More Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 2:44pm Francisco Boni Neto Francisco Boni Neto Mike Lorrey is a famous troll Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:52pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Greed honestly does not motivate much of what I do, Mike ... And I am not unique in this regard ...

I also do not advocate old style socialism. New times and new tech call for new solutions...See More

Technoprogressive Declaration - Transvision 2014 Here at the Transvision 2014 in Paris we just… IEET.ORG Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 4 · November 3 at 2:53pm Randal Koene Randal Koene It's early times yet (only 9 poll responses so far), but at the moment the split seems to pretty much be along the lines I suspected: more institutional social safety vs more libertarian (4 and 2 votes at present). Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:53pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Ben Goertzel reiterates, exactly the point I was trying to make re:one political party. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:54pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Yes, mike lorrey has caused a lot of hassle via repetitive right wing trolling on other forums ;p Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:55pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey No I haven't. But people who have love to keep repeating such smears. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:55pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Lifeboat foundation as an example, Mike ... Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:56pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Supposed 'trolling' aside (which I can't corroborate or refute), I think it's pretty clear that the 2 big sides here are not in agreement... and furthermore, that the debate devolves into exactly the kind of 'I'm right, you're an idiot' type of debates that we see left and right having these days. It doesn't look at all like transhumanism is somehow above these things or more cohesive. Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 2:56pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Randal Koene ... Agreed ... Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 2:57pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Even setting aside issues of communication style etc, there are basic differences in value system and high level strategic intuition here Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 2:58pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I am a Lifeboat board of advisors member, and have the full support of Eric Klien. So, no, not a troll in Lifeboat. Like · Reply · November 3 at 2:59pm Randal Koene Randal Koene An 'appeal to authority', which really doesn't help support any position nor whether there was trolling or not. Seems irrelevant. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:02pm · Edited Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I was a group admin until people like Goertzel, and others engaged in a pernicious back door campaign of harassment and complaints simply because they disagree with my views, they're no different than Anita Sarkesian and her SJW militants in the Gamergate situation, or the puppy kickers in the Hugos controversy. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:04pm David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel I would be more energized for a technoprogressive party than a generic transhumanist party personally Like · Reply · 3 · November 3 at 2:59pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Sounds like an interesting option. I sincerely feel that IF there will be actual *parties* coming out of this, there will have to be more than one (per country). Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:03pm Peter Morgan Peter Morgan I thought we were going to let AI make the decisions. Like · Reply · November 8 at 10:40am View more replies David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey The basic disagreement comes down to the initiation of aggression. The progressives believe in the use of evil, unethical, initiation of aggression to achieve their ends, just like their ideological ancestors in the soviet union, communist china, and the US social democrats, etc, and the technolibertarians do not. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:01pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Mike --- conceded --- your high volume repetitive right wing posting on the lifeboat list was not technically “trolling”... I take that back Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:02pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey And the ends that technoprogressives advocate are not transhumanist, they are trans-statist or trans-collectivist, borganist even. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:02pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I rarely post more than once or twice a day to Lifeboat, so, once again, you are lying. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:02pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Mike, i do not agree with you but i find your inflammatory rhetoric tedious....so i will exit this argument ... Better ways to spend my time than arguing politics with fanatics on facebook ;p Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:05pm Randal Koene Randal Koene That's interesting. So, there may be parts of the transhumanist movement who see collective, cooperative directions more interesting - they might even lead to closer merging of minds and selves! Others, would prefer as much individualism as possible. This seems like a serious difference. Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 3:05pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey yes it is, and if there is to be a unified party, such coercive collectivism has to be dropped, in favor of a more broad pro-technology agenda. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:06pm Randal Koene Randal Koene My conclusion so far (but the poll is still young) is that there will probably not be a unified party. Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 3:07pm · Edited Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey The only reason Francisco and Ben are making these personal attacks on me, these smears, is because I'm seen as the leader of the technolibertarian faction. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:07pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Randal, as a technoprogressive i support individual freedom, and do not want anyone forced into a mindplex or hive mind etc ?

Just to be clear wink emoticon Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 3:07pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey And you can trust his statement here as much as his lie about my behavior in Lifeboat's group. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:08pm · Edited Randal Koene Randal Koene Got it, Ben Goertzel. (I think there are people who would prefer a mindplex though.) Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:08pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Mike Lorrey, I don't really care at all about various smears in any direction. It's just background noise to me. That said, I know Ben Goertzel pretty well, and I think he's a very clear-headed and strong thinker in Transhumanist circles. So, there's that. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:09pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Mike, it is your insulting style that turns me off , otherwise i dont mind arguing with folks who disagree with me ... Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:11pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Ben claims to be for individual freedom, but wants to use thought police to control what people think and say, and definitely wants a central authority to control what people do with their labor, and money, and property. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:11pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey You think its insulting only because I'm so effective at illustrating your basic dishonesty. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:12pm Peter Morgan Peter Morgan Please STFU Mike. Like · Reply · November 8 at 10:44am Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey And rudeness. Like · Reply · 1 · November 8 at 10:44am David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Randal Koene Randal Koene This whole thread is so hilarious! smile emoticon I don't think anything could have made my point about the basic differences within transhumanism and the unlikelihood of a unified political platform (or even the ability to do civilized debate towards compromise) more clearly than this thread. Like · Reply · 4 · November 3 at 3:14pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Mike, i do not advocate thought police at all... Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:14pm Randal Koene Randal Koene So -- next step, David J Kelley, if this is not going to be a political party, what are the other options that make sense? Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:15pm Peter Morgan Peter Morgan AI for President! Like · Reply · November 8 at 10:44am David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey You engage in thought police tactics on FB all the time, Ben. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:15pm Adam Ford Adam Ford Civilizational progress has happened over many many lifetimes - compared to people at the beginning of agrarian societies, or during the dark ages, arguably we are very lucky to be around at this time to reap the dividends that this progress is paying off. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:15pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel I am however about to board a plane and go offline for a while, so i will not be able to continue this delightful discourse wink emoticon Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:16pm Adam Ford Adam Ford On the other hand if we don't go extinct, then future lives if any, may have orders of magnitude more dividends to reap. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:16pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel https://www.google.co.kr/search?client=ms-android-om-lge...

youtube frank zappa brain police - Google Search GOOGLE.CO.KR Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 2 · November 3 at 3:18pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:19pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Actually, Randal, the choice split in this thread clearly illustrates that it is the technolibertarians who are the true transhumanists, while the so-called "technoprogressives" still cling to obsolete 19th century concepts of socialist coercive redistribution and intolerance of diverse opinions. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:19pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Just a farewell troll guys ... Enjoy the debate Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 3:20pm Adam Ford Adam Ford I think the system in place really should do it's best to a) keep people from involuntarily dying, b) flexibly optimize equitable distribution of the dividends of progress, and c) be fault tolerant... and yes this is a simplification Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:20pm Randal Koene Randal Koene I think at this point we need to open up the thread to more possibilities, and stop pretending that a single party is possible at this time. If Mike Lorrey wishes, he can call one of those parties 'The Real Transhumanists (tm)'. No problem with that. I...See More Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:21pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Good travels, Ben Goertzel! Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:22pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Adam i agree with you, and note that technoprogressivism advocates both basic income and freedom of thought and speech ... Like · Reply · 3 · November 3 at 3:22pm Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Ooh cool, i wanna be the Surreal Transhumanists !!? Like · Reply · 4 · November 3 at 3:24pm Adam Ford Adam Ford I've got a video about that (sort of): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNN60YaaMjM

Altered States of Consciousness through Technological… YOUTUBE.COM Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 2 · November 3 at 3:25pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Nice! Watching... Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:25pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Love Stelarc and can't believe you got Kent on there as well! Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:27pm Adam Ford Adam Ford Yes, Kent's point about 'the world is crazy' is gold Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:31pm David J Kelley

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Choose File Randal Koene Randal Koene Here's a very interesting potential side-effect of sprouting separate 'transhumanist-ish' political parties, two of which will almost certainly lean a) progressive, b) libertarian, is the following: 1) It will be interesting to see the proportions and ...See More Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 3:43pm Adam Ford Adam Ford A lot of the political collective action problems are complex - and solutions are often presented from the reference point of - what if everything went right? Perhaps we need to work towards intermediary 'utopias' - not expecting the perfect society, ...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:44pm Randal Koene Randal Koene Indeed, Adam Ford. I was just reminded of the fallout from one of the big fires that swept through the area here and destroyed so many homes and towns. Right now, recovery from that depends on a combination of private homeowner insurance and funds made...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:49pm Adam Ford Adam Ford How are people going to behave in different political systems when the lights go out? when confronted with looming disasters, and during these disasters? At the moment in the first world, some of the well off are overly paranoid about protecting their...See More Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:49pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey technoprogressives have repeatedly proven they are incapable of tolerating opinions or speech that they disagree with. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:50pm Adam Ford Adam Ford Mike, think about what there is to achieve in trying to make the case that technoprogressives or 'political stance X' are bad or intolerant - to me it's likely to result in polarized opinions where people are less motivated to use reason to measure differences in opinion, and more motivated to dig in and entrench their beliefs. Like · Reply · November 3 at 3:54pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Well look at how things have progressed to date. They all piled up behind one guy against me for CFO, he won, then was exposed as a sock puppet. The progressives who engage in smear campaigns against me (and this has become a rather tired and old thing...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 3:59pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey This basic dishonesty displayed by the use of sock puppet accounts speaks to the core of the ethics that the technoprogressives have, that they are so adamant about pushing their agenda and ideology that core principles like honesty about your identity...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 4:01pm Adam Ford Adam Ford I find you hard to deal with Mike. It seems most threads you are involved with go up in flames - and it seems you are often involved in provoking people - I don't have faith in incendiary strategies to gain political support - seems unproductive to me. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 4:05pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey If saying my opinion provokes people, then the problem is with their intolerance. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 5:17pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey They are using Alinsky tactics of personal attack and destruction. That I refuse to let them get away with it should not be treated as my bad. Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 5:20pm David J Kelley David J Kelley No Mike, you of course need to be the diplomatic person. especially as a leader. if your opinion provokes then you should say it nicer... IF they are using tactics in poor taste of course we need to deal with them but leaders need to be above pettiness and control their opinion. and always be nice or as nice as possible. someone else's behavior should never be justification for our own poor behavior. Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 5:53pm · Edited Randal Koene Randal Koene Kind of lost track of who 'they' is here? Which 'they' are you (David J Kelley and Mike Lorrey) talking about? Like · Reply · November 3 at 6:42pm David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Alberto Gordillo Alberto Gordillo listen guys, i know mike is hard to deal with sometimes, but once you calm down and learn to take some of the things he says in stride, you'll quickly learn he has a lot to contribute to the transhumanist party, i like ben's suggestion about an amalgam...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 4:18pm Daniel Anix Daniel Anix Here is my take: I don't particularly agree with or like what Mike has to say or how he says it, but when he posts about specifically formation and sustaining a political organization he seems by far one of the most knowledgeable people here and I'm willing to give him a chance on that. Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 5:16pm Heidi Hecht Heidi Hecht I see Mike Lorrey as somebody who is maybe a trifle undiplomatic, but when he is willing to have a civil discussion, he is capable of making good points. I see things like "free" healthcare, "free" education and UBI as maybe good ideas in theory, but t...See More Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 3 at 5:29pm John Warren John Warren My opinion on the matter is thus. If we automate out the general welfare of the people without an alternative lifestyle then we have failed. We must protect the individuals and the groups that will become obsolete as a matter of the general progressi...See More Like · Reply · 2 · November 3 at 6:18pm · Edited Heidi Hecht Heidi Hecht It is tricky. Libertarians are kinda used to defending their own corner because they're in the minority. But the real trick is making it so that all transactions are completely voluntary ones on the part of all parties involved and also recognizing tha...See More Like · Reply · November 3 at 6:41pm David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Ben Goertzel Ben Goertzel Sooo …. regarding Mike Lorrey’s comments and also regarding more interesting matters…

I was typing my previous comments in this thread on my phone while walking through Incheon Airport, so I didn’t have “bandwidth” to say anything too thoroughly… Now...See More Like · Reply · 4 · November 4 at 1:24am Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey More lies. Since I've proposed a decentralized basic income scheme, his insinuation that I am attacking him for his support of that is quite hollow. You can infer the honesty of the rest of his statements from that. Like · Reply · November 4 at 8:04am · Edited Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey I have not made any personal attacks in this thread, but he and Randal Koene have, as have others. They regularly use Alinsky tactics, then cry abuse if someone rejects their abusive statements. Like · Reply · November 4 at 8:06am Alberto Gordillo Alberto Gordillo can we just start over mike? wipe the slate clean and come together? Like · Reply · November 4 at 8:12am · Edited Eric Schulke Eric Schulke Can somebody give a basic description of blockchain? Like · Reply · November 4 at 9:59am Heidi Hecht Heidi Hecht Eric Schulke This is a decent video that explains it in layman's terms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIVAluSL9SU

The real value of bitcoin and crypto currency technology -… YOUTUBE.COM Unlike · Reply · Remove Preview · 2 · November 4 at 10:01am Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey It's essentially a form of database made up of a chain of blocks of data that is hashed through whatever process you want, and transactions are authenticated block to block. Extropians Ralph Merckle, Nick Szabo, Wei Dai, Hal Finney, and myself contribu...See More Like · Reply · November 4 at 11:06am Dan Elton Dan Elton I'm just going to throw this out there;

I identify as a libertarian, and I support the idea of basic income / direct payments (in a *limited* form -- see post below ). Milton Friedman also supported it. The idea is to level the playing field, so peop...See More Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:08pm · Edited Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Europe scaled back its defense spending by depending upon the US defense/deterrence umbrella, and unwisely thinking that Russia would not return to its former power. The eurosocialist welfare state programs are the result of this sort of narrow minded ...See More Mike Lorrey's photo. Like · Reply · November 6 at 11:56am Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Giving a universal basic income simply cannot be funded by even eliminating the entire military budget. If we eliminated all defense spending, that would enable a UBI of only about $1200 PER YEAR. Thats hardly enough to live even a threadbare existence...See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 6 at 2:09pm · Edited Dan Elton Dan Elton This is a good point. This is why pure UBI programs (where everyone gets a check) are absurd. According to one estimate I saw, taxes would have to rise 30% for such a program, which would lead to economic stagnation, a stoppage of innovation and growth, and perhaps even a welfare-state like death spiral of gov't liability and debt. Like · Reply · 1 · November 6 at 2:10pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey And lets not even get started on the fiscal implosion if such a program isn't accompanied by very stringent immigration laws. Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:12pm David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Dan Elton Dan Elton I guess I'm not being clear about what I am thinking of. I was not thinking of version of UBI where everyone recieves a paycheck, I'm thinking only of direct payments to the unemployed. Also, it may be contingent on whether they are looking for work or...See More Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:08pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Unemployed already get direct payments, and many states already make it contingent on you looking for work or pursuing education. Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:10pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Unemployment insurance is not UBI Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:11pm Dan Elton Dan Elton OK, sorry, I am finding the terminology confusing. Sorry guys! Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:12pm Dan Elton Dan Elton I'm really sorry guys.. this is closer to what I was thinking of: http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/NegativeIncomeTax.html Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:14pm · Edited Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey No problem. UBI is universal, which means everybody gets it every day of their lives. The idea has been around a long time, its not new. Heinlein wrote about it in an early unpublished novel called "For Us, The Living", which was essentially funded by ...See More Like · Reply · November 6 at 2:16pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey What we need to acknowledge though is that the technological productivity increases that cause deflation COULD potentially fund such a program. The current zero interest rates and <2% inflation rates are entirely fabricated by the banking system today....See More Like · Reply · 1 · November 6 at 2:23pm Michael Hrenka Michael Hrenka That is indeed an interesting idea. Just give newly printed money to the people as universal basic income directly, and keep inflation at about 0%. With this scheme, you wouldn't even have to use the word taxes. Like · Reply · November 7 at 10:13am Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Ideally, you pay it into investment accounts while people are minors, becoming available to them at age 21 for use in education or funding businesses, homes, etc. Like · Reply · November 7 at 10:16am Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey A deflation funded UBI would still be around $2000 to $2500 per year, per person until the singularity got cooking with accelerating rates of deflation, but this could be enhanced by my national cryptocurrency idea that would give people needing it the ability to mine coin while decentralizing govt, eliminating a lot of bureaucratic spending. Like · Reply · 2 · November 7 at 3:25pm · Edited Michael Hrenka Michael Hrenka $2500 per year would at least be a significant amount. It would decrease the difficulty to provide for a sufficient basic income with other means. Land value taxation would be my preferred approach. Economists like that tax, because it avoids many of the adverse effects of other taxes.

In the long term I see basic incomes that are integral to new cryptocurrencies as a viable route. Like · Reply · November 7 at 3:28pm Samantha Atkins Samantha Atkins Anyone that really gets blockchain mining knows that the most people without significant resources are not going to be successful miners. Like · Reply · 3 · November 7 at 3:29pm Mike Lorrey Mike Lorrey Thats not true, thats only valid if the hashing algorithm of the particular cryptocurrency is only done by certain types of chips, like GPUs with certain command sets. Bitcoin is such an algorithm, but Litecoin is not. Like · Reply · November 7 at 3:33pm Samantha Atkins Samantha Atkins I think we get all the needs and many of the desires of every single human being met by vastly improved technology making it trivial to meet these needs and desires with a very small fraction of total productive capacity. At that point I doubt very mu...See More Like · Reply · November 7 at 3:34pm Samantha Atkins Samantha Atkins If it is not a bit difficult then some of the tech guarantees come into question and if everyone can do X you get a superabundance beyond the actual need and real world valuation rather quickly. Like · Reply · November 7 at 3:35pm Michael Hrenka Michael Hrenka Samantha Atkins: Yes, that would mean that this national cryptocurrency idea would probably end up as something like a state sponsored mining pool.

Mike Lorrey it may be true that different cryptocurrencies with different algorithms have their own dif...See More Like · Reply · November 7 at 3:35pm Randal Koene Randal Koene State sponsored mining pool is actually really similar to what I was saying way up in the thread about removing the inefficiency & difficulty of getting people mining. Ultimately, you could just build the 'basic income' right into the algorithm as a set amount/percentage of new coins that go to each individual (in the state/world). Like · Reply · 2 · November 8 at 10:23am David J Kelley

Write a reply... Choose File Samantha Atkins Samantha Atkins That said I haven't read up on Litecoin and why it works as well. Like · Reply · November 7 at 3:35pm Peter Morgan Peter Morgan Mike, why are you forcing me to do coin Mining?? Like · Reply · 1 · November 8 at 5:43am Mark Larkento Mark Larkento Long term, I think Samantha is correct.

In the interim, the work that Mike & Michael have been doing separately offer useful paths during the transition.

Cc: David Wood , Transpolitica James Hughes , IEET David Orban , Network Society Like · Reply · 1 · November 8 at 5:56am


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